Dunetz/ YidwithLid - Follows Seduction (NLP/ Sales) Patterns to the Letter

(originally posted in 2005)
EOPC's owners spent considerable time going over the 2 years worth of chats "J"/ Yidwithlid had with his Targets. Reprinting the pertinent chats in full would be boring for our readers and Target #1 was very specific about what we could not use.

Unlike our first predator - Ed Hicks (whose chats involved multiple women to whom he told the same thing) these chats below focused on one person that has given us copyright. Our copyright rules are on the left margin of this site. (A second Target comes along later. Whether Dunetz/Yidwithlid was targetting anyone else during this time we do not know)

What struck us as we were going through these chats is how Yidwith followed the seduction techniques in Robert Greene's THE ART OF SEDUCTION and seduction gurus like David Shade & Ross Jeffries - almost to the letter.

Little did Target #1 or later Target #2 suspect they were being systematically brainwashed!

Target #1 wrote to us about feeling "distracted, not herself, out of sorts" and "hypnotized" in retrospect. She spoke about "buzzing feelings in [her] head" and "wierd often synchronistic bodily sensations" during and after her chats with "Dunetz/GRIDNEY." (See post about Online Brainwashing) Was she responsible? She feels she was - but we know that these cyberpaths can skillfully manipulate the best of us!

Therefore - using excerpts from THE ART OF SEDUCTION we are going to use some of Dunetzs 'lines' and snippets of chat where appropriate - in order to show what was done to the Target. (confirmed chats on various Chat Platforms between April 2002 - February 2004) - Fighter

1-Choose the Right Victim
They are often isolated or at least somewhat unhappy (perhaps because of adverse circumstances), or can easily be made so -for the completely contented person is almost impossible to seduce. The perfect victim has some natural quality that attracts you. The strong emotions this quality inspires will help make your seductive maneuvers seem more natural and dynamic. The perfect victim allows for the perfect chase.

Target #1 is disabled, estranged from an abusive husband and a 'single parent.' Yidwithlid mentions frequently his other girlfriends - one who had an abusive father, another ex-fiance who was abused and then his wife whose ex-boyfriend was supposedly severely abusive. Basically exposing the fact that he, like most predators, 'hunts the wounded.'

Yidwithlid (aka Dunetz) references the relationship he had with the Target at University (spelling & syntax have been cleaned up - but content is unaltered) and here are some of his 'lines':

"J": You were the most talented person I ever met.

"J": You were a beautiful woman. I am positive you still are. No matter how much weight you have gained

"J": I would do anything to embrace you again

"J": You always supported me and were good to me.

"J": You are too nice

"J": How can [your ex-husband] not love you?

"J": Someone should hold you all night long

"J": I can see you not giving in to a disability

"J": You must have had guys chasing you all over the place

"J": You give me the chills

"J": Now that I have found you again, I will NEVER let you go

"J": I always could talk to you

"J": You make me feel like Stanley Kowalski

2-Create a False Sense of Security - Approach Indirectly. Lull the target into feeling secure, then strike.

"J"/ yidwithlid often spoke to Target #1 about her being - the only woman he could trust or talk to:

"J": Can I ask you something personal? about sex?
Target: I can't possibly have been the only woman besides your wife you were intimate with!
"J": One of the only decent ones
"J": Please
Target: OK shoot

Dunetz/ Yidwithlid goes on to confess - in great detail - his dismal marital relations. We are leaving the VERY SPECIFIC stuff out here for obvious reasons

"J": Shes....disappointing

"J": I am so frustrated

"J": I don't know what to do about her

"J": She doesn't want to talk about it

"J": I love her but....

"J": I am not sure I love her anymore

"J": She's sooooo .... practical!

"J": I would never go to a hooker...[my wife] would take the kids from me. besides, its immoral and illegal.

"J": Can I talk to you about some personal stuff


Of course the Target (who seems to be an 'altruistic rescuer' - one of the classic targets for cyberpaths) tells him to feel free to open up to her. Creating a sense that he trusts her and ONLY her.

3-Send Mixed Signals
Send mixed signals: both tough and tender, both spiritual and earthy, both innocent and cunning. A mix of qualities suggests depth, which fascinates even as it confuses. An elusive, enigmatic aura will make people want to know more, drawing them into your circle. Create such a power by hinting at something contradictory within you.

Contradictory statements by Dunetz/ Yidwithlid we pulled from chats sometimes days or hours apart. Imagine how confused his Target was!:

"J": I can't feel
"J": I am all about feelings

"J": Sex is only good when there's emotion involved
"J": Casual sex is great - just get laid

"J": Women can be very impressive
"J": I look at every woman like they are a hole

"J": I want to be with you so bad
"J": We can never be together 'like that' again

"J": I hope we can get together
"J": I can't see you - I can't control

"J": I don't kiss ass - I am honest
"J": I am a great 'emglissher' [Yiddish for embellisher or liar]

"J": I don't get out much
"J": I will be out/ I have a meeting ..... (used in numerous chats)

"J": You are my friend, my very special friend
"J": I have friends - besides if I spend time with you I will have to make some hard decisions about [my wife]. / I can't control around you

"J": I never believed in spiritual stuff
"J": I am deeply observant and religious

"J": I never liked tall women (Target #1 and his wife are tall)
"J": Your weight and physical problems don't matter to me (when Target #1 was blunt about how her illness had changed her. Numerous times. Including that yidwithlid SAW her when she was on a national morning show in June 2002! )

While Dunetz/yidwithlid continued to push his 'desire' for the Target - he simultaneously tried to advise her about repairing her marriage and later told her to just "go get laid". Something she would never do. She admitted to us, she foolishly went along with some of it because Dunetz/ Yidwithlid made her feel terribly guilty if she disagreed with him.

4-Appear to be an Object of Desire - Create Triangles
Manufacture the illusion of popularity by surrounding yourself with members of the opposite sex-friends, former lovers, present suitors. Create triangles that stimulate rivalry and raise your value. Build a reputation that precedes you: if many have succumbed to your charms, there must be a reason.

"J" spent over an hour from the pages of chat, in Spring 2003 talking to the Target about his ex-fiance. He went into great detail about her sexual prowess and of course devalued Target #1 at the same time - totally negating any initial positive talk he had fed Target#1 about his "desires" for her and implanting further confusion and trauma bonding.

"J": I don't think I love my wife anymore

"J": my wife is so.... practical!

"J": when I asked her to ****** she flipped out

"J": [my ex-fiance] was really jealous when she heard I got married

"J": [my ex-fiance's] husband X is gay. We all went to school together. I know

"J": [my ex-fiance] still writes to me all the time

"J": I wish I could find [my high school girlfriend]

"J": I know my ex-fiance would come back to me if I asked her

"J"/ Yidwithlid used the phrase "I talked to/or/ spent time with my friend so-and-so" frequently while simultaneously REFUSING to see the Target because he couldn't control himself around her. "J"/ Yidwithlid also frequently expounded about activities he was involved with, events he went to with his wife or friends and golf excursions. "J"/ Yidwithlid probably purposely did this to create frustration for the Target's desire to just get together (non-sexually) as well as using it like a 'carrot on a stick.' (note: Dorsky and Beckstead did the same with their Targets.)

The Target introduced Dunetz/ Yidwithlid to one of her dearest friends online. "J"/ Yidwithlid developed a friendship with this girl (later called FOT1) . Dunetz/ Yidwithlid would often tell FOT1 NOT to tell Target #1 things. (cyberpaths & abusers love to separate & isolate people) "

"J"/Yidwithlid would act paternally towards this friend of the Target's -- then flirtatious. (A crazymaking technique of pedophiles!)

5-Create a Need: Stir Anxiety and Discontent
Pain and anxiety are the proper precursors to pleasure. Learn to manufacture the need that you can fill.

"J"/ yidwithlid spent a lot of time trying to see why the Target gave up her former career and moaning about the career path he had taken. Both had wanted to be actors. Target did have a small career doing voice-overs and television commercials before her marriage and disability stopped that. "J"/ Yidwithlid said he didn't have the drive to continue and blamed it on his having Adult ADHD.

Additionally "J"/ yidwithlid verbally blame-shifted & made the TARGET RESPONSIBLE for his feelings and his complete lack of sexual impulse control. You will see that this instilled guilt, confusion & obligation in Target #1 - while he played with her mind.

Dunetz/ Yidwithlid got Target #1 to open up to him about her loneliness since her marriage failed and her struggles as a 'single' parent. "J"/ yidwithlid also made her comfortable and then obtained information about her past sexual history from her. He peppered those chats with:

"J": I want to embrace you. Just thinking about it makes me ***.

"J": If we were together it would be - do to me - do to you

"J": I would do anything to make you happy

"J": When I see you I will [fill in blank with cybersex]

"J": You know that will never happen

"J": Don't give me your address - I can't trust myself with it

"J": I want to **** you so bad

"J": I haven't been with anyone but my wife in years - but you.... you are another story


Need we say how crazymaking and depressing this emotional and psychological game he played was?

Target #1 did attempt to end the online relationship a few times - and succeeded in doing so for almost a month twice. But "J"/ Yidwithlid either appealed to her or FOT1 - and Target #1's forgiving nature gave in.

6-Master the Art of Insinuation
There is no known defense, however, against insinuation-the art of planting ideas in people's minds by dropping elusive hints that take root days later, even appearing to them as their own idea. Insinuation is the supreme means of influencing people. Create a sublanguage-bold statements followed by retraction and apology, ambiguous comments, banal talk combined with alluring glances-that enters the target's unconscious to convey your real meaning. Make everything suggestive.

"J": last nite I dreamt that you and I [cybersex here]

"J": I have been fantasizing about you all day [insert fantasy here]

"J": I was thinking about you and..... I think I hurt myself

I had a dream about you last nite
"J": tell me
"J": please

"J": Where will we go? a hotel room?
"J": cant do it here or there

"J": Im sorry if I offended you

"J": I didnt mean for it to get this far

"J": I think we should let things cool off


(said after the Target's ex-husband discovered the emotional affair, contacted Yidwithlid (who never responded) and started abusing Target #1. This was Dunetz/ Yidwithlid's cowardly excuse for running away and abandoning his Target with no support)

"J": I am sorry but.....

"J": If I think about you any more I am going to do something stupid


Most of Dunetz/ Yidwithlid's cybersex scenarios involved enough reality touches and suggestions of hookups that would drive anyone senient person out of their mind. Target #1 also sent us emails Dunetz/ Yidwithlid sent her. Never anything personal - she was on his mail list (as a BCC) for every sexual, suggestive and dirty email joke he got. Occassionally he would send one to her with a comment like "I wish this was us" or "do you think you could do this" or "we would have fun doing this wouldn't we."

Target - "I often said stuff like 'o.k. get in your car right now and meet me for coffee if you mean that.' We lived about an hour apart. Yidwithlid would get very mad and tell me I was being stupid and careless. Yidwithlid said if we got caught it would be bad for both of us. I told him it was just STUPID that we weren't even having lunch or something after knowing each other all those years. I figured if he saw me he'd cool off - I wouldn't be a fantasy person anymore I'd be real and he'd be more realistic. But he refused. I could kick myself for not using common sense - but for some reason, it was as if I couldn't think straight."

Dunetz/ Yidwithlid was also, over time, ramping up his requests for the Target to do things, take pictures of a sexual nature, get a webcam, make homemade porn for him, etc. The requests, as with most Online Predators - got more crude & rude as time went on. The Target would refuse and "J"/ Yidwithlid would apologize profusely saying:

"J": I understand if you never want to talk to me again;
or
"J": If you want me to just go away I will
or
"J": I am sick, I need help
or
"J": [online is] the only safe way we can be together

7-Enter Their Spirit
Play by their rules, enjoy what they enjoy, adapt yourself to their moods. In doing so you will stroke their deep-rooted narcissism and lower their defenses. Hypnotized by the mirror image you present, they will open up, becoming vulnerable to your subtle influence.

Target #1 - Yidwithlid would slowly, over time, start picking up my phrases or ideas with "that's cute." Within the first 5-6 months of the relationship we seemed to be so in sync it was eerie. I knew about manipulation but not mirroring. It never occurred to me that someone I KNEW would do that to me! It just seemed like we were well matched. Yidwithlid rode the tide with me and continued to convince me he was 'trustworthy.' I had no reason to doubt him at the time.

8-Create Temptation
Lure the target deep into your seduction by creating the proper temptation: a glimpse of the pleasures to come. . Dangle the prize before their eyes, postponing satisfaction, and let their minds do the rest. The future seems ripe with possibility. Stimulate a curiosity stronger than the doubts and anxieties that go with it, and they will follow you.

(see #5 above for references here)

9-Keep Them in Suspense: What Comes Next
The only way to lead the seduced along and keep the upper hand is to create suspense, a calculated surprise. People love a mystery, and this is the key to luring them farther into your web. Behave in a way that leaves them wondering. Give the victim a thrill with a sudden change of direction.

The Target told us: Yidwithlid would disappear from IM for days or weeks. I am sure now he had me blocked. But it was usually after a very intense cybersex session.

His behavior was odd when I first knew him but now it was downright bizarre. He would initiate cybersex and I was having fun, yes - I went along. And then the next day if I brought it up or tried to be tender with him - he would act like it NEVER happened. As if he had NO IDEA what I was referring to. Then a few hours later he'd be wanting cybersex or phone sex with me - again, like the prior conversation never happened.

Once I told him I wasn't going to jump into bed with him without seeing him and spending some face time with him; that I wasn't some whore - he got very snippy with me and disappeared for over a month from IM. I never made that suggestion again because of my fear of abandonment.... and he knew it. (Yidwithlid played on this fear) When questioned he would blame everything on his Adult ADHD. (Yidwithlid: Im ADHD remember??)

Yidwithlid was a master at emotional and psychological torture.

10-Use the Demonic Power of Words to Sow Confusion
The trick to making them listen is to say what they want to hear, to fill their ears with whatever is pleasant to them. Inflame people's emotions with loaded phrases, flatter them, comfort their insecurities, envelop them in fantasies, sweet words, and promises, and not only will they listen to you, they will lose their will to resist you.

Keep your language vague, letting them read into it what they want.

From Target - The cybersex was absolutely mindblowing for a long time. I had never ever done that before ever!

Yidwithlid used our prior relationship to legitimize and sanitize it as the 'only safe way we could be together.' Yidwithlid said all the right things. And I would sometimes do a lot of talking with Yidwithlid just agreeing or going along - or saying nothing so he made it SEEM like he agreed - of course with all the responsibility on me for 'thinking' that way.

He'd built up my trust in him completely.


A friend of this site calls these loaded phrases 'sleeper bombs.' That is - sexual innuendo or promises or phrases that, at first, seem harmless but hours, days or weeks later they pop up in your head while you try to unravel them. See this post for a review of this manipulative technique.

"J": I will see you... when its safe

"J": Maybe we can have lunch next week (this was said many times with no follow up)

"J": Can I call you? I lost your number again

"J": You are special

"J": Please don't stop talking to me

"J": I need you

"J": I don't want to lose you out of my life. You're too important to me

Did we mention "J"/ Yidwithlid is an award winning SALESMAN/ MARKETING PROFESSIONAL?

11-Pay Attention to Detail
The details of a seduction-the subtle gestures, the offhand things you do-are often more charming and revealing. gestures that show the time and attention you are paying them. All of their senses are engaged in
the details you orchestrate.

"J": put on your headphones, I want to sing to you

"J": I sent you an article I knew you would like

"J": Here - I know you will like this (sends picture or article)

"J": this should perk you up (usually said after sending pictures of his penis!)

"J": I was thinking of you today and found this......

"J": The cybersex isn't without emotion for me... it's confusing - I don't know what to do.

"J": You know I have feelings for you.... (lost count of the times this line was used)

12-Poeticize Your Presence
Remain elusive, then, so that when you are away, they will yearn to see you again, and will only associate you with pleasant thoughts.

(please see reference to #9 above)

MORE TO COME........

yidwithlid